Builders giving free Metropasses to condo buyers??!

MARCO DIFOTI

Senior Buzzer

550

45

Builders giving free Metropasses to condo buyers??!

What is up with this City of Toronto policy, whereby builders have to give a free TTC Metropass to new-condo purchasers?? This seems ludicrous. What happened to the free-market?

Toronto Star article: http://www.thestar.com/news/torontocouncil/article/926810--builders-pressure-ford-to-cancel-metropass-plan

I think this sounds like the biggest tax-grab ever. People who drive, drive. They are not going to be more inclined to use the TTC because of this one-year Metropass, and there is no way that they are going to use it 44 times per month in order to pay for itself unless the people were already planning to be TTC users.

I remember when this policy was first announced, Councilors were saying that it would be great for marketing. Give me a break. It is up to the builders how to market their condos. What does the City know about marketing.

At the end of the day, the only people this will affect are the purchasers, who the builders will push off the extra cost to.

Insane.

18

Toronto / New Home Q&A

MATTHEW SLUTSKY

Senior Buzzer

2299

171

I am all for public transit, but builders should not be forced to purchase Metropasses for all their purchasers. This will just add an other cost to the building, which will be passed onto the consumer.
Why should the consumer have to pay for something that they will not use. Why add an additional expense to homeownership?
If purchasers want this, then it would be a nice selling tool, but should not be mandatory.

CHRIS DULABA

Buzzer

73

5

I agree, builders shouldn't be 'forced' to purchase Metropasses, it should be voluntary. However, if providing these passes has a specific benefit to the buidler (e.g. reduced parking requirements, increased density, etc), then it makes sense.

MARCO DIFOTI

Senior Buzzer

550

45

Great point above Chris. There must be a trade off, and there must be an incentive for builders to do this. That would be fair.

MOO STASH

BabbleBee

301

21

I have heard people say something along the lines of, "On a $500,000 condo unit, does the $1,000 addition actually make a difference???".
It is the principle of the matter. Why should someone be forced to pay for a service that they are not going to use? Enough is enough.
There are enough additions built into the cost of purchasing a condo unit. From the increased development fees, to land transfer taxes, to everything else under the sun.
It is not just an additional $1,000, when you add up all of these costs.
Don't even get me started on property taxes! Why am I paying for schooling, when no one living in condos even has kids that are in school.

NHINCOMPOOP

Buzzer

28

3

Moo said:
It is the principle of the matter. Why should someone be forced to pay for a service that they are not going to use?

But isn't that like saying, "I don't use the pool in my building, therefore, I should pay less condo fees?"
I agree that ultimately it's purchasers that will bear the cost of this "perk" and it can be staggering on top of all the other incremental taxes and fees that purchasers have to pay. But the idea of this mandatory Metropass policy is to support a city that supports transit, even if not every condo owner uses it. It's like an amenity for the city, just like the requirement for public art outside condo buildings. Can you measure the individual benefit that each owner gets? No. Do Torontonians benefit as a whole? Yes.

MOO STASH

BabbleBee

301

21

^^If that is the case, then why doesn't it just get added on to everyone property-tax bill, and everyone gets a Metropass? Why single out condo-owners??
As someone mentioned above by Chris, I would support this if it was in return of higher density or less parking spaces.
There are lots of things that would be great and beneficial to the city, but unloading it on new-condo purchasers seems insane.

MATTHEW SLUTSKY

Senior Buzzer

2299

171

^^I agree with Moo and Chris. I would see much less of an issue with this if it was in exchange for higher density or less parking requirements.
I do not fully understand why purchasers of new condo-units should have to bear the cost of this subsidy for public transportation. If it is better for the city, and people want to help the TTC, then it should be an increase on property-taxes and everyone can help bear the cost.

URBANDREAMER

Buzzer

96

2

Really I just think it`s the developers playing politics, much like the TTC did a few years ago. Today it`s a right wing mayor who`s seen as pro business; yesterday it was the TTC begging for more cash from leftie Miller. So ultimately, does it really matter what happens? Developers always pass costs on to the consumer, so perhaps they`re thinking if oversupply becomes an issue (which I think it will and is created by them in the first place) downward pressure on prices finds builders looking for ways to cut prices without cutting profits--the metropass is the gravy train here!
Or is it?
Clearly some of you and the industry has forgotten the city planning department`s basic operations--allowing increased density along the Avenues, for example Sheppard--in exchange for the increased TTC usage it hopefully brings. But it`s not really working out that way... Because really, many condo complexes are vertical subdivisions for today`s market! Look at the appalling Pinnacle Bay St complex for example--huge parking garage and driveway takes up most of the main drag frontage--sound similar to 80`s 905 subdivisions? :p
Ultimately, it`s up to the market to decide the fate of `not really free` commuting options. Intensification is wonderful, but does come with some costs. Perhaps the GTA really isn`t sophisticated enough yet--or truly urban enough yet--to live without the car.

MATTHEW SLUTSKY

Senior Buzzer

2299

171

^^David, I don't think it has anything to do yet with, "...the GTA really isn`t sophisticated enough yet--or truly urban enough yet--to live without the car."
In my opinion, people in Toronto would love to use the TTC more, however as it currently stands you can not get very many places via the subway, and no one likes taking the bus.
Sure, the TTC might need more money to achieve a better system, but how does taxing a small base of users make sense for this?

MARCO DIFOTI

Senior Buzzer

550

45

David said:
Really I just think it`s the developers playing politics, much like the TTC did a few years ago. Today it`s a right wing mayor who`s seen as pro business; yesterday it was the TTC begging for more cash from leftie Miller. So ultimately, does it really matter what happens? Developers always pass costs on to the consumer, so perhaps they`re thinking if oversupply becomes an issue (which I think it will and is created by them in the first place) downward pressure on prices finds builders looking for ways to cut prices without cutting profits--the metropass is the gravy train here!

I think it does matter what happens. At the end of the day, there will be an additional cost passed down onto the consumers for something that they should not be footing the bill for.

David said:
Intensification is wonderful, but does come with some costs. Perhaps the GTA really isn`t sophisticated enough yet--or truly urban enough yet--to live without the car.

It is wonderful, and it does come with some costs. Why should a select few people have to pay for the additional cost?

BRIAN ELIZABETH

Buzzer

166

10

David said:
Perhaps the GTA really isn`t sophisticated enough yet--or truly urban enough yet--to live without the car.

Agreed. Toronto is not big enough or dense enough to be a public-orientated city. Driving is still often cheaper and faster than taking public transit.
If that ever changes, then we will become a more car-free society.
For now, we must plan for the future, and start building a better infrastructure, which takes money. So, why not get it from the new condo purchasers, especially if they are on a transit line.

SECURITY FIRST

Buzzer

19

1

There is one piece of "wisdom" that you forget:
"There are NO FREE lunches"
there is no such thing as FREE. the cost is being transfered to the purchasers, tenants etc. if they want it or not.

URBANDREAMER

Buzzer

96

2

And since TTC passes are transferable, I highly doubt purchasers are bitching. Developers--ask the purchasers first! (In fine print, disclose the fact all costs are passed to the buyer!)
I have never needed a car to get around Toronto; but of course I know folks who drive all the time yet live in the perfect Annex semi while preaching the merits of urbanism to their suburban work mates--very amusing. Need groceries? They drive from Bathurst and Barton to Christie and Dupont--a really enjoyable 12 minute walk that is also well served by transit, cabs, and cyclists!

No one says you have to buy a condodivision (new word created by me?) in hell--aka Sheppard East or West--and expect free parking or free transit; but it`s easier to give your metropass to a relative or friend in need than it is to give them your car!

MATTHEW SLUTSKY

Senior Buzzer

2299

171

^^Note to self: start using the term "condodivision". Love it. For the purpose of clarity, and seeing as you invented it, I think you should give it a definition!

URBANDREAMER

Buzzer

96

2

Condodivision: A vertical subdivision. Found in car-centric suburbs and even downtowns across the Globe. A condo designed to mimic the idyllic fantasies of suburban living--large driveway, parking garage, green yard or roof; and the negatives associated with the `burbs--isolation, obesity, car culture, generic retail.
A work in progress--bbhomer`s, feel free to add to it!

MARCO DIFOTI

Senior Buzzer

550

45

^That is great! I would add to the definition, as see below:
Condodivision: A vertical subdivision. Found in car-centric suburbs and even downtowns across the Globe. A condodivision designed to mimic the idyllic fantasies of suburban living--large driveway, parking garage, green yard or roof; and the negatives associated with the `burbs -- obesity, car culture, generic retail, gated from society with concierges/security, and a lack of a sense of community.

URBANDREAMER

Buzzer

96

2

Ah that hits the spot. Canadian Oxford Dictionary 2012, where are you?

MATTHEW SLUTSKY

Senior Buzzer

2299

171

Hi David and Marco, great definition!! I am not sure what a "dictionary" is. Maybe you mean Wikipedia?
I have added some little points to it:
Condodivision:
Con·do·divis·ion
- noun
A portion of land, where higher-density is achieved through dividing the vertical airspace above the land for purposes of habitation, while not improving the built, economic and social environments of communities; a vertical subdivision. Found in car-centric suburbs and even downtowns across the Globe. A condodivision designed to mimic the idyllic fantasies of suburban living--large driveway, parking garage, green yard or roof; and the negatives associated with the `burbs -- obesity, car culture, generic retail, gated from society with concierges/security, and a lack of a sense of community.
This has now officially been added to my personal dictionary, and will be used as much as possible, where possible.

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