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MATTHEW SLUTSKY
BuzzStaff
reply 1969 vote 68
 

Paper thin walls in condos?

On Twitter today someone mentioned that one of their concerns in new condos was "paper thin" walls. I have never actually heard anyone living in a condo complain about this in their specific units.

I have heard a rumour from people saying stuff like: "A friend of a friend had a problem.....".

Has anyone had any first hand experience with "paper thin" walls??
25
Canada / New Home Q&A
 
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 129 vote 34
 
 
1 BEST REPLY
I wouldn't call it "paper thin" walls.
Almost all new construction condos are of concrete construction and often the walls dividing the units are of concrete and double as structural walls.

The problem with concrete is that certain sounds transmit very easily through the concrete structure, most notably impact sounds like something dropping. This sound could easily travel thourgh multiple levels and sounds noticeably loud and clear as if it coming from the unit directly above but infact could be a couple units above or to the side.

A condo I lived at previously had that issue where every morning it sounds like my neighbour above me is dropping rocks or moving large furniture. I went upstairs to check it out and I found out the noise was from a unit two floors up and one unit over.
All of the units have laminate flooring and stippled ceilings which didn't help in absorbing the noise that transmit through the concrete.

My first experience with living in a concrete building was in a newly built university residence. I could hear billiard balls dropping on the floor which sounded really loud and clear as if it was coming from the floor above, but the pool table room was actually 5 levels above. The floor finish in the residence was not designed to be sound absorbing at all, which was thin commercial carpet or vinyl tile.

I can't image what it would be like to live in a condo that has exposed concrete floors, I'm sure it would be a lot worse. Like Marco said, if I have a party in my place which I know noise would be a potential issue, I would do the polite thing and give my neighbours an advance warning and even invite them over as a friendly gesture.

Sounds from a TV or stereo, especially loud deep bass, from another condo unit could be heard in almost any condo.
 
 
 
AAREAS INTERACTIVE INC
Buzzer
reply 46 vote 1
 
 
My old condo, 18 Beverley seemed to have amazing soundproofing. I would often blast music at 3/4 am and nobody would ever complain, going out in hallway I could never hear it.
Just moved to the Soho Met and cannot comment yet.
-Jake
 
 
MARCO DIFOTI
BabbleBee
reply 476 vote 12
 
 
I am calling BS on this. There have been rare occasions when I have been in a condo, and have been able to hear the neighbours, but in those instances they were throwing major parties and the neighbours who I was visiting were told in advance about the party and were invited.
You have the same issue with semi-detached homes and row houses.
 
 
LEV GORMAN
NewBee
reply 8
 
 
When we rented, in apartment building we had problems with our next door neighbor’s alarm clock being set to 5AM. It had such sound that probably penetrated the entire building. And kids from apartment above jumping from the couch. But this is pretty much it.
I haven’t heard any complains from the condo residents so far
 
 
DARLENE
Buzzer
reply 41 vote 1
 
 
Whenever you are in a situation where you share interior walls, floors and ceilings with another unit or house (semi-detached, townhouse, condo), you will hear some sounds. It is never 100% sound proof. Builders do ensure that shared living spaces are built to code to reduce the sounds coming from other units and from the exterior, however, in the middle of the night and early morning when it is most quiet, you will hear your neighbours more than you would during the day. Even in a single family home, you can hear outside noises, like when a car drives by with the radio blasting, you can hear the music resignate right inside the house. There really is no such thing as a sound proof home.
In a condo situation, people must respect each other and keep noise to a minimun during the evening, night and early morning. Normal, every day living should not present a problem between the neighbours. You just have to be prepared that you will hear some sounds when you live in a condo, townhouse or semi-detached home.
 
 
ROB LOVE
Buzzer
reply 33 vote 12
 
 
1
Never in any of the newer units I've rented, but I did experience this in an older 4 story in Vancouver. Our elderly neighbors were Scottish and did not like each other. Thankfully they we're not late nighters, they did all there cussing mid day. What I found infinitely more annoying was the lady in high heels who walked around her hardwood floors at 6AM every morning. Actually, a cautionary tale here, if you hear shoes on hard wood, not always above you. Can be adjacent as well. I learned this lesson waking up my upstairs neighbors at 6AM, thankfully it worked out and we made some friends - but not before things got really awkward.
 
 
INDU SETH
NewBee
reply 4
 
 
I think most people these days are considerate of their neighbours in highrise condo buildings when it comes to not making too much noise as to disturb others living on the same floor or below them. Also I feel that the construction has improved a lot as time goes on. One incidence does come to mind however of a complaint about a renter of mine who was a student making noise late in the night from a lady who lived below my unit. I later found out that she was a very light sleeper, also this was an older building in the downtown core. Newer buildings are much less problamatic, at least in my experience.
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 129 vote 34
 
 
Indu, I think that really depends on the building.
In my experience, and a lot of my friend's and colleague's experience, buildings that have a large number of renters and/or smaller units don't really have the same kind of consideration of their neighbours as other buildings. New condos tend to have more renters and smaller units (and a lot more units), so I see noise among other things to be an issue.

I had an major issue with other residents at the last place I lived at which happened to be at Cityplace; litter in the halls and garage, junk mail thrown all over the place in the mail room, cigarette butts thrown off the balconies, late night noise, etc.
This was also the case in other large condo developments like Liberty Village, etc. It felt like I was back in school.

Condo living is a communal lifestyle and unfortunately many renters (especially younger renters) do not care much about the condo rules & regs, nor have lived long in such a setting to understand or respect it.
That is why I moved into a much smaller and older condo building because it had very little renters, had extremely low resident turnover (there wasn't the usual moves at every end of the month) and there was an overall respect and pride of ownership which was evident just walking through the building. Eventhough sound proofing between the units is not as good as many of the newer buildings, I had less issues about noise than I had before simply because of the people living there.
 
 
THEBRELTEAM AT SAGE
Buzzer
reply 10 vote 3
 
 
I'm surprised by these responses, to be honest. Every realtor who sells a lot of condos knows there are certain buildings that are terrible for sound (especially converted lofts). I've heard entire conversations in the unit next door/above during showings and have had clients who could hear their neighbour snoring - it's not just parties and loud music. I love condos, don't me the wrong, but there are def buildings that have earned their reputation for bad soundproofing.
 
 
MATTHEW SLUTSKY
BuzzStaff
reply 1969 vote 68
 
 
theBRELteam said:
I'm surprised by these responses, to be honest. Every realtor who sells a lot of condos knows there are certain buildings that are terrible for sound (especially converted lofts). I've heard entire conversations in the unit next door/above during showings and have had clients who could hear their neighbour snoring - it's not just parties and loud music. I love condos, don't me the wrong, but there are def buildings that have earned their reputation for bad soundproofing.

Can you name some of these buildings?? Hearing someone snoring seems pretty crazy.
 
 
BARBARA
Buzzer
reply 65 vote 4
 
 
What about water noises..i worry that flushing toilets and running showers can always be heard. Can someone cure my fears.
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 129 vote 34
 
 
The common response I get from many homeowners is that they get used to the noise.

I don't think I could get used to certain noises like fire truck sirens, or crazy homeless people screaming and cursing at night, etc., but then again that is part of city living.
 
 
MATTHEW SLUTSKY
BuzzStaff
reply 1969 vote 68
 
 
^^funny. I really like street noise, but can't stand neighbour noise.
 
 
RYAN MCGOVERN
BuzzStaff
reply 283 vote 31
 
 
Matthew said:
^^funny. I really like street noise, but can't stand neighbour noise.

+1
I'd much rather deal with street noise then neighbours blasting music at 3am.
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 129 vote 34
 
 
I actually don't like both.
When I was living in CityPlace the couple next door was constantly fighting. They were yelling, screaming and slamming doors. My neighbours downstairs could hear it too. I had to call the concierge on them a few times because it was happening late at night.
The traffic noise from the Gardiner I eventually got used to, but there will be those really loud and annoying trucks and motorcycles that blares by every so often (and I was on the 30th floor).

To Barbara's comment: In terms of plumbing/toilet noise I did hear a little bit of it but it wasn't significant. Because bathrooms and kitchens are usually stacked on top of each other on every floor these noise seem to be limited only to those areas.

As I said previously the most annoying noises from neighbours are the floor impact noises which travels so clearly and easily through the concrete slab and walls.
 
 
BETTY MOLLOY
NewBee
reply 2
 
 
I am very envious of you people living in condo's with no noise. I purchased a loft in the east end and it is a nightmare. One wall is really paper thin. Every time my neighbour sneezes I hear it. When music or the tv is on I can hear every word. When a visitor is over I can hear their conversation. Today I spoke with the manager he told me probably there is not enough insulation and this could be a fire hazard. When I told him I was thinking of bringing someone in  to find out if the wall is to code his attitude changed towards me he said I should sell.  It is 3:00am and I cannot sleep due to my neighbours tv. Sorry for the rant just need to get it out of my system.
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 129 vote 34
 
 
Betty, have you tried talking to your neighbours? I'm sure they will be understanding and considerate, especially if it is happening in the middle of the night.
If that doesn't work you should look into a getting a white noise device. I have one and I swear by it. I always take it with me when I travel. It drowns out most noises and it's even good for places that are too quiet.
I believe they go by the name Sleep Sound or Sleep Mate and it's inexpensive -- under $40.
 
 
JAMIE K.
Buzzer
reply 82 vote 19
 
 
In the last condo I rented their was some noise issues between units. Usually though it was someone play music really loudly and mostly the noise pollution ends up in the hallway (wish there was someway to fix that actually. Though the "disturbance" of "paper thin walls" was rare. 

Now in where I'm living currently. I have had to get out of bed twice in the last 2 months to investigate loud noise. 2 high school parties in the adjacent backyards are far louder and disruptive than anything I experienced in any condo.
 
 
GORD SMART
BuzzStaff
reply 170 vote 21
 
 
It's very interesting to hear about these noise issues in condos and SFH. Wondering if its a cultural respect "thing" - I lived in Tokyo for a year (pop. 14,000,000 - Metro pop. 35,000,000) and these type of noise issues are very rare.

Living in cramps quarters throughout Tokyo and Japan, people there seem to treat their homes, and their neighbours homes and privacy, with much more respect than we seem to here in North America. If people want to make noise and "carry on" in Tokyo, they go to the bars and restaurants and make their noise there.

When at home, the Japanese understand that they live within earshot of thousands of people - and because of this they seem respect the notion that every inappropriate noise they make ... others will certainly hear ... and be annoyed by.
 
 
JAMIE K.
Buzzer
reply 82 vote 19
 
 
@Gord Smart I think it might be a combination of cultural, generational, and age.

culturally America (and Canada too, to a certain extent) is very ME, ME, ME! So that might play into it a bit.

Generationally I think we have a lot of people here in Canada who are experiencing high-rise living for the first-time. Yes we've had apartment buildings for a long time. Though not to the same extent that people are living in mid-rise and high-rise condos like they are in the GTA these days. By comparison Tokyo has had living quarters that are much tighter for longer. 

Age wise there are buildings in the downtown core that are VERY rental heavy in terms of the demographic of people inhabiting the building. A lot of these people are young people. Students, young professionals, etc. and they may not have the same respect level for others that someone in their 30-40's would have. These young people are also renters so most of the time they don't quite respect the building the same way an owner would..... I can think of a  "Place" where this is very much the situation.  
 
 
KELSEY ARNOLD
NewBee
reply 3
 
 
I'm moving into my condo this summer and I am SOO worried that people will be noisey! I have wood framing in my building and I've heard some horror stories from friends that you can hear everything going on in the other units! I've also heard you can hear showers, toilets ect? Although I don't know of it will effect me since I'm on the top floor. Does anyone know about wood framing and sounds traveling? Should I be worried?
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 129 vote 34
 
 
I am not familiar with the minimum standards for a party wall for wood construction in Toronto, but I lived in a townhouse where the party walls comprises of two wood stud walls with a 1"air space in between and the cavity filled with insulation, and I think the interior walls were two layers of drywall. It was extremely quiet and I never hear any noises from my neighbours.

In condos you will be surprised on how much noise theHVAC in the hallways masks the noise and also pressurizes the hallways to prevent smells from migrating from each of the units. The air handling unit was down in my condo for a few days I really noticedthe smells of people's cooking and it also sounded like a Best Buy store where you can heareveryone's TVs walking down the halls.

I agree that many people living in condos are notused to communial living and respect the condo rules and possess the general respect and consideration for their neighbours. This is especially true for renters where many of them are young and don't typically possess the pride of ownership.
That is why I avoid living in a condo that has a high concentration of small/cheap units and prefer living on a high floor where units are typically more expensive and have less riff raff.
 
 
BETTY MOLLOY
NewBee
reply 2
 
 
Thanks Allen for your reply my building manager e-mailed my neighbour this by the way was the third time so far quieter. I also took your advice about the white noise machine. It is currently running as my other neighbour has his base blasting. Is there someone out there who can explain why builders are allowed to put up these paper thin walls. I also live on the top floor it is the worst in the building for soundproofing and people who love to blast music. I have to add these are not inexpensive units.
Well that's my rant for today
 
 
BRIAN PERSAUD
BabbleBee
reply 274 vote 12
 
 
I remember Mike Holmes saying he would never live in a condo...said you could hear people fart. 

Building code for separations are not enough and gaps can occur if stuff is installed in walls

I talk about this in my book 

http://www.amazon.com/Investing-Condominiums-Strategies-Canadian-Investor/dp/1118043855   
 
 
JAMIE K.
Buzzer
reply 82 vote 19
 
 
Minimum building codes for insulation and dividing walls is just that. A minimum requirement that developers have to build the structure to so they can pass inspection. Is the minimum requirement enough? Obviously by the discussion in this thread no. 

I'd really like to see the numbers on what the added cost would be to a units price to increase the sound insulation in a condo unit so they are quieter in general. Also does anyone know of someone who tried to "fix" the issue by increasing the sound insulation in a condo post-purchase?
 
 
 
 
 

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