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KIYOKO FUJIMURA
BuzzStaff
reply 82 vote 3
 

Maintenance fees based JUST on square footage? Come onnnn.

One thing that's irked me for quite awhile about the Toronto condo market is the broad stroke approach to allocating maintenance fees.

(Size of unit) x (maintenance fees per square foot) = Your monthly charge

End of story.

While the size of unit should play a part in it, I've noticed that New York doesn't have the same "one size fits all" approach.

http://realestateqa.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/those-monthly-charges-in-co-ops-and-condos/

How should maintenance fees (or common charges as they call them in New York City) be allocated?
17
Toronto / General Chit-Chat
 
 
 
MATTHEW SLUTSKY
BuzzStaff
reply 1987 vote 73
 
 
2 BEST REPLY
@CondoWizard ...I think that the key would be to have a system that does not fluctuate, so that budgets can be maintained.
 
 
 
MATTHEW SLUTSKY
BuzzStaff
reply 1987 vote 73
 
 
This has always driven me crazy, as the larger units get killed on fees, even if they are using the same amount of services as everyone else. 

I have always thought that it should be by number of bedrooms. 

A 2bd 800 square foot unit probably uses the same amount of chargeable amenities as a 3000sf 2bd, other than maybe a bit more on common hallway heating and AC. 

So, I think it should be by bedroom, opposed to SF.        
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 130 vote 35
 
 

If you have parking or a storage locker space that also adds to your maintenance fees.

And I'm not sure if this is really true or not, I've heard that even the amount of balcony space also affects your fees as well as you have more exclusive rights to limited common elements that everyone pays for the maintenance and repairs for.

I agree that the whole calculation of maintenance fee structure is not really fair. A single person living in a 1,200 sq.ft. unit would be paying a lot more in fees than a couple and their young child living in 750 sq.ft. doesn't make sense.

Having it based on the number of bedrooms is a good idea, but anyone could add a bedroom or at least a bed without the management knowing about it and also dens could be used as a bedroom as well making it difficult to calculate a fair fee. I think it should be based on the number of residents living in the building, as many property management companies collect information on who lives in the unit for fire safety purposes.

I think there should be an extra fee for those who rent out their units, as tenants put a higher demand on the building's maintenance. They typically care less about the building, landlords don't really check up with their tenants that much, and these units face a higher turnover.

 
 
MATTHEW SLUTSKY
BuzzStaff
reply 1987 vote 73
 
 
@allen ...the problem with issuing it by total residents in a unit is that there would be no stability. Condos run on tight budgets, and the board needs to know exactly how much money they are working with.

As such, with people moving in-and-out of buildings, there would be no stable predictions on revenue by going this route.

But, at the time of building, it is known exactly how many bedrooms are in each unit and as such might be a better measure.

Thoughts?      
 
 
NICHOLAS GAVEY
Buzzer
reply 60 vote 11
 
 
I've noticed a few building starting to separate items like water, gas, heat from the maintenance fees and think this is a good start to evenly distributing costs. Like it was mentioned earlier. You can have 1 person living in 1,200sqft and 3 people in 700sqft. Who's going to be using more water (e.g. doing laundry and washing dishes?), what if someone has a gas BBQ and another doesn't?

When you take out these items then I think a $/sqft calculation. You are then only paying for running the core building. I think trying to break it up by bedrooms could get complicated. You can have a 655sqft 2 bedroom and a 750 1+den. Does that mean the smaller 2 bedroom is paying higher maintenance fees?
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 130 vote 35
 
 
I thought that hydro, gas and heat/AC are not included in the condo fees? (at least with newer condos)
 
 
NICHOLAS GAVEY
Buzzer
reply 60 vote 11
 
 
Hydro hasn't been for years but usually gas, water, heat/ac still are.
 
 
ANDREW LAFLEUR
Buzzer
reply 99 vote 24
 
 
Interesting conversation. High fees is one of the factors that is holding up the 'Manhattanization' of Toronto as no one wants to pay $800-$1000/month in condo fees that are associated with family sized units.

The worst offenders in this category are the town home units that are often found at the base of condo buildings. A 1300 sq ft unit like this will have double the average condo fee of most of the units in the building and yet the unit owners often don't use any of the common spaces or amenities at all. The fees act as a strong disincentive to purchasing a condo townhouse, thus the extreme popularity of freehold town homes in the core.

The larger unit owners end up subsidizing the smaller units in any given building. 

Ultimately the calculation on a per square foot basis is the simplest solution therefore it will continue, however I like @Matthew Slutsky'sidea of doing it on a per bedroom basis. the problem of course would be how do you define a bedroom and developers and owners alike would do things to try to manipulate what is considered a bedroom to keep fees down. The best solution would probably be on a per-person basis but this would be nearlyimpossibleto police properly.

 
 
MATTHEW SLUTSKY
BuzzStaff
reply 1987 vote 73
 
 
@Andrew LaFleur ...couldn't the number of bedrooms be based on the builders unit mix and floorplans, as submitted to the city?
 
 
ALLEN
Buzzer
reply 130 vote 35
 
 

I think gas is not included, the last couple places I lived at, both a new condo and and an older condo, I received bills from Enbridge. Also electricity usually powers your heat and A/C so that is also not included in your condo fees. The first condo I lived at I moved in during a heat wave and I had my thermostat set very cool, it was not until I got my first electric bill that I discovered that I was paying almost $200.

To Andrew, I am shocked at how much condo fees are in Manhattan, and I am not just talking about larger apartments. I was looking at a 500 sq.ft. condo in a decent part of the city, it seemed like a steal at around $400,000, however the condo fees were $1,200 a month! This was in a pre-war building that had no amenities but it did have a doorman.
However many of the apartments in New York have a real doorman & concierge, not a glorified securityguard sitting behind a desk which we have here. They offer a very high level of service and they are a very trusted and treated very well by the residents.

On the other hand, the condo fees in Vancouver are relatively cheap compared to Toronto. These condos offer no different amenities and services than the condos we have here. I think the property management companies have a major influence in setting condo fees.

 
 
ANDREW LAFLEUR
Buzzer
reply 99 vote 24
 
 
@Matthew Slutsky 
could be at first before construction, but it's somewhat subjective what counts as a bedroom these days as you know (have you seen some of the '3rd bedrooms' in the entertainment district!?) and once the building registers and is handed over to the unit owners, the arguments will begin as to what is a bedroom and what is not. 

Another side note: it's not really fair that balconies and terraces have zero maintenance fees attached to them. you could have a 300 sq ft unit with a 700 sq ft terrace and a 1000 sq ft unit with no outdoor space at all...one pays $150/month for maintenance and the other pays $500.
 
 
YOSSI KAPLAN
NewBee
reply 9 vote 1
 
 
@Andrew LaFleur some TSCCs have a hard limit on condo fees paid by townhomes, and remember they usually have no need for elevator, lobby, etc.
 
 
CONDOWIZARD
NewBee
reply 6 vote 10
 
 
1
No single variable is sufficient to effectively calculate maintenance fees. A mixed approach is the most accurate method, by combining square footage (to account for utilities) and number of tenants (to account for potential usage of amenities). It is surprising that the latter is not considered because it is the only fluctuating variable and is equally important.
 
 
ONTARIO CONSUMER
NewBee
reply 1
 
 
Ontario's Condominium Act Review is underway. You can have your say and share your ideas. Here's how: http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/condo_rev.aspx
 
 
JOSIE STERN
Buzzer
reply 92 vote 37
 
 
1
This is a little off topic but I have come across a few condo units this year whereby the building neded work but the reserve fund was insufficent to cover the costs for repair. So instead of levying a special one time assessment on each unit owner, the board chose to increase the condo fees. This brought the condo fees to over $1,000 per month not including utilities - $300 or so above the average condo fee for the size of unit. This makes it impossible to get the best price for these units. What are these board members thinking when they do this?
 
 
CONDOWIZARD
NewBee
reply 6 vote 10
 
 
1
@Josie Stern Unfortunately, most board members and many property managers are not educated in what features drive condo prices up, and often neglect to approach experts to find alternative solutions before making important decisions. Your example is a reminder of how vital expert opinion is in uncertain territory.
 
 
JOSIE STERN
Buzzer
reply 92 vote 37
 
 
@CondoWizard I couldn't agree with you more.
 
 
 
 
 

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